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Username Post: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210        (Topic#33011)
406 'velle 
Senior Member
Posts: 176

Reg: 03-24-03
05-01-03 03:41 PM - Post#222115    

Dart Pro 215 aluminum vs. AFR 210's

are these two heads comparible in price and flow? what are your opinions on each?
1974 Chevelle, 406 AFR 195's, air gap intake, holley 750, crower solid flat tappet, TH350, 4.10's


 
85Vette 
Senior Member
Posts: 108

Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Reg: 12-31-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 03:24 AM - Post#222116    
    In response to 406 'velle

I did this same study for months. The AFR-210's CNC'd cost $1450. The Dart Pro-1 - 215CC heads, I bought for $999, then paid $250 to have them bolt ported, gasket matched and short turn radius polished.

People say to average the CFM by adding the CFM from each lift i.e. .100, .200, .300 etc from both heads. So I took this to be that they are bascially close to equal based on the numbers below.

The AFR's show slightly better low lift flow but the thing that I think AFR does a little better is that the Intake-Exhaust ratio is slightly higher on the average.

The Darts I/E ratio is .89, .81, .75, .69 and the AFR's is .82, .73, .75, .75, .76. The rule of thumb on this is "higher is better"

Anyway, I bought the Dart Pro-1 215 CC heads from www.indyheads.com, call and ask for Scott.

Average Intake CFM from .200, .300, .400, .500, .600 lift
Dart = 207=CFM Avg
AFR = 226-CFM Avg

Intake Exhaust ratio
Dart = 75% avg
AFR = 76% avg
1985 Vette 406 CI AFR 210, Miniram, ZF 6 Speed Hyd-Roller 233/233 12.5 ET @ 114.5 MPH 385 RWHP / 405 RWTQ


 
406 'velle 
Senior Member
Posts: 176

Reg: 03-24-03
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 04:23 AM - Post#222117    
    In response to 85Vette

can AFR heads be bought only directly from the company?
1974 Chevelle, 406 AFR 195's, air gap intake, holley 750, crower solid flat tappet, TH350, 4.10's


 
85Vette 
Senior Member
Posts: 108

Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Reg: 12-31-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 05:21 AM - Post#222118    
    In response to 406 'velle

Yes, but you can and should get them elsewhere, I call no less than 10 companies and they all were within $50 of each other. They claim the mark up is only $150.

Even tried to get a group purchase going and they still @ the same price even if we bought 10 sets.
1985 Vette 406 CI AFR 210, Miniram, ZF 6 Speed Hyd-Roller 233/233 12.5 ET @ 114.5 MPH 385 RWHP / 405 RWTQ


 
TracyFocht 
Senior Member
Posts: 198
TracyFocht
Loc: Stillwater, Ok
Reg: 12-26-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 06:28 AM - Post#222119    
    In response to 85Vette

I have the Dart 215cc, love them and flow enough IMHO for my 406.
Behind every great man...is an underwear tag.


 
4_Speed_Dave 
Senior Member
Posts: 550

Loc: Southington, CT, USA
Reg: 10-26-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 08:47 AM - Post#222120    
    In response to TracyFocht

I myself have the ARF 210's on my 607 hp (on a real dyno NOT Desktop dyno) 406 SBC. In talking with the dyno operator/engine builder the AFR's are a much better head. There flow ratings are not inflated and work much better than the Dart Pro-1's he has tested. One of his customers had him build a 434 SBC with the 215 Darts and above 6200 rpm the motor fell flat on it's face and the power really nosed off rapidly. Where my 406 kept making very good power up to 7500. 607 peak hp at 6700 rpm and 550 at 7500 rpm. So you can see the AFR's flow plenty of air even in the upper rpm range.
Dave

4 Speeds Forever!!
69 Nova , Jerico DR-4
Ford 9" / 5.00's
Dave's 69 Nova


 
BowtieFreak 
Senior Member
Posts: 282

Reg: 12-23-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 09:42 AM - Post#222121    
    In response to 4_Speed_Dave

4 speed-
Care to share your combo with us. Pretty impressive numbers.

 
4_Speed_Dave 
Senior Member
Posts: 550

Loc: Southington, CT, USA
Reg: 10-26-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 10:00 AM - Post#222122    
    In response to BowtieFreak

Sure:
ARF 210, 64cc
Wiseco flat tops -5.4 cc valve reliefs (11.57 to 1)
0 decked GM block with Milodon 4 bolt splayed mains converted from a factory 2 bolt block.
Eagle ESP crank polished and oilo holes chamfered
Eagle H beam rods.
Comp Hi-Tech Solid roller @ .050 266 intake 268 exh. .660 intake .630 exh.
Crower Super Roller lifters
Holley 300-25 Strip Dominator single plane
Holley 950 HP carb 78 square jetted
GM point converted to elec. with the pentronix kit
Stud girdle and Comp Magnum roller rocker arms
1 7/8" hooker super comps coated

I got 14 dyno pulls in and all the printouts. I tell you that was the best money I ever spent. All exhaust temps were monitored durring the pulls and BSFC, Fuel GPM, very handy in the tuning process. The motor was very efficiant the BSCF on the best pull was .42. And that is attibuted to the good flowing heads.

I do not care for desktop dyno for the peak HP numbers. It told me this motor would be 540 hp and well as you can see the program was full of cr@p. I did use the program however to model trends in the TQ & HP curve which is how I chose my cam. It took me 5 hours on the computer to find the cam that I liked best. I use this for drag racing but I ended up choosing a Oval track grind because it gave me the best overall average power.

Yeh, the motor is fun and powershifting the 4 speed is lots of fun!! I should be getting to the track with this new combo in the next couple of weeks. My wife just had our first baby (son) so it might be longer than I think till I get there. I'll let you know how it turns out at the track.
Dave

4 Speeds Forever!!
69 Nova , Jerico DR-4
Ford 9" / 5.00's
Dave's 69 Nova


 
jshouse 
Senior Member
Posts: 985
jshouse
Loc: Rockwall, TX
Reg: 05-16-01
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 11:14 AM - Post#222123    
    In response to 4_Speed_Dave

i was looking at these heads also and was kind of talked into the dart's. i heard that fully ported the darts have more velocity and flow than the afr's. i went into the decision looking to buy afr's, but ended up the pro 1's after many posts here and a few other places. i dont think you can go wrong with either.
1979 RCSB LS1
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/jshouse99/ DS...


 
85Vette 
Senior Member
Posts: 108

Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Reg: 12-31-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 11:22 AM - Post#222124    
    In response to jshouse

4-speed you probably have a fully ported set of AFR's,,,,, YES?

I was told that AFR's have their limit for porting due to deck thickness.

I could have bought either set. But Chose the Darts as my motor was designed for a max RPM of 6000.

I need to start looking at the drag cars here in INDY to see what everyone else runs, when I think about it I dont recall seeing AFR decals on many cars,,, but I will look a lot closer in the upcoming weeks!

Also when you talk about inflated numbers, I called every head manufacturer and they all agree that the listed flows are rarely exact. Case and Point with a set of AFR 195's
http://www.ws6transam.org/afrflowdata.htm
1985 Vette 406 CI AFR 210, Miniram, ZF 6 Speed Hyd-Roller 233/233 12.5 ET @ 114.5 MPH 385 RWHP / 405 RWTQ


 
85Vette 
Senior Member
Posts: 108

Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Reg: 12-31-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 01:00 PM - Post#222125    
    In response to 85Vette

I just went to teh AFR website, looks like some major pro stock guys have used AFR's fro some time. Cool info and dyno test on their website.

I should have my 406 in the car in 2 weeks, I can hardly wait! Then I can get mine to the dyno here in Bloomington, IN and see how my numbers turn out. I built my 406 a little mild as I drive it quite often.
1985 Vette 406 CI AFR 210, Miniram, ZF 6 Speed Hyd-Roller 233/233 12.5 ET @ 114.5 MPH 385 RWHP / 405 RWTQ


 
4_Speed_Dave 
Senior Member
Posts: 550

Loc: Southington, CT, USA
Reg: 10-26-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 01:53 PM - Post#222126    
    In response to 85Vette

I like the 400's they have become very popular in the last 5 to 6 years or so. To me you can't beat them for overall HP and TQ if built properly with an aftermarket bottom end and good flowing heads. Dave
Dave

4 Speeds Forever!!
69 Nova , Jerico DR-4
Ford 9" / 5.00's
Dave's 69 Nova


 
Granpa's_SS 
Member
Posts: 97

Loc: Surrey BC Canada
Reg: 10-29-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 05:30 PM - Post#222127    
    In response to 4_Speed_Dave

I picked the new new new Brodix 200CC RaceRites for my 400 big SB. 200CC runners for velocity, but the average flow numbers for .200 through .600 are 238CFM, more than both the 210AFR and Dart 215's bigger ports.
Get this at .300 195CFM, and at .650 where I stop lift its at 273CFM, and that 273 is not included in the .200 to .600 average above.
Price of course is another matter, with 2.08 and 1.6 valves titanium retainers etc, the Brodix are almost the same bucks as the AFR's 210.
The exhaust flow numbers are a little less when I take the averages, but I picked a hugh COMP XE solid roller dual pattern to compensate. As well went with 1 7/8 tubes to help.
Everthing I have studied on 406 / 415 SB has been pointing me to get the largest CFM with the smallest runner size possible, Brodix RaceRites fit that need for me. With the torque comming off this thing, I just don't see having to spin it past 6,400 RPM , so the smaller port makes sence.
406 Stroker Brodix 200RR Tremec TKO 600 5 SP Isky Solid roller 244/250


 
cbumdumb 
Senior Member
Posts: 178

Loc: Church Point, LA.
Reg: 11-24-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 05:32 PM - Post#222128    
    In response to 4_Speed_Dave

I have had the oppurtunity to run both heads on the same engine never had them on the track but afr out of the box pulled a little better but a mild cleanup and mild porting on the dart pro and I was sold and as for as durability my wife had a lower radiator hose fail and before she shut it down due to a knocking sound and the temp guage pegged she called me from the side of the road and by the time a friend got there with some hoses he added water and stared it and has been running since no cracks no warped head and the guys at the local speed and machine shops here recommend them also for thier quality .

And as posted above at the end of the day I see a lot more winners and semi fianalist with a majority with Dart and Brodix.
clinically insane angry grumpy old fart


 
Anonymous 

Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 05:57 PM - Post#222129    
    In response to Granpa's_SS

4 Speed Dave- how did your tq curve look. Where did it peak and what were the #'s? Also, what lsa is your cam? Thanks

Grandpa's SS- Your avg int flow #'s are identical to mine. I recently built a 12.5:1 422sbc with ported twisted wedge heads. The intakes flowed 221@300 and 268@400. The motor made 603@62-6400 and 583tq@4800. Only got 3 dyno pulls before leaky head studs stopped progress. Good mid-flow really pumps up the tq and still helps put up good peak hp #'s. Nice choice!

 
Granpa's_SS 
Member
Posts: 97

Loc: Surrey BC Canada
Reg: 10-29-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-02-03 06:29 PM - Post#222130    
    In response to

John,
My heads are not ported, just CNC from Brodix. With almost 280CFM at .700, why would I want to fiddle with thier work?, especially when I flow that through 200CC runners. Can you imagine the torque due to fast cylinder fill with 200CC runners!
I will not publish much more on my combination until next week, or at the latest May 14th.
We have elected not to dyno pull the motor just for the sake of bragging rites. I do expect a tad under 600HP at 6,200, and at least 560 TQ at 4,600 all done with less than 11:1 compression. We have already set the rev limiter to 6,200 as all the numbers tell us there is just no need to spin it past that.
Monday, tuesday its going into my ground up restore 68 Nova SS, Lakewood bell, C-Force 2, Super T10, 3:73 Eaton Posi with 10.9" wide BFG G-Force rubber. Cooling compliments of a 1,000 HP dual fan Be-Cool. 325 LBS lighter than a big block, its a rat killer.
I have drilled the RPM Air Gap intake and bung'ed it for a FUTURE direct port fogger system.
Power is addictive
406 Stroker Brodix 200RR Tremec TKO 600 5 SP Isky Solid roller 244/250


 
Its me KBC 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4500
Its me KBC
Loc: Behind the Cheddar Curtai...
Reg: 02-18-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-03-03 12:36 AM - Post#222131    
    In response to Granpa's_SS

I'll say a little prayer for your clutch & tranny.
Hippies smell.


 
Granpa's_SS 
Member
Posts: 97

Loc: Surrey BC Canada
Reg: 10-29-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-03-03 07:35 AM - Post#222132    
    In response to Its me KBC

Thanks, I may need the prayers for the Super T 10 and Centerforce.
I had a choice between a 4 speed and a turbo 400 a long time ago with my build.
I have never seen a group of guys at a car show say " Wow look at that car, and its an automatic too!!!! "
If I was to purely race the car, yes the 400 would be my choice, but there is noting as nice as rowing.
406 Stroker Brodix 200RR Tremec TKO 600 5 SP Isky Solid roller 244/250


 
4_Speed_Dave 
Senior Member
Posts: 550

Loc: Southington, CT, USA
Reg: 10-26-02
Re: Dart Pro 1 215 heads vs. AFR 210
05-03-03 11:25 AM - Post#222133    
    In response to

TQ curve is FLAT.
rpm TQ HP
4500 545 467
5000 556* 529
5500 543 568
6000 517 591
6600 490 607*
7000 443 591

Dave
Dave

4 Speeds Forever!!
69 Nova , Jerico DR-4
Ford 9" / 5.00's
Dave's 69 Nova


 
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