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Username Post: Saginaw 3 spd manual ID help        (Topic#279792)
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-17-12 01:43 AM - Post#2216012    

Hello All-
I've been searching all over the net for specific info on a tranny that came in a parts car I bought a while back. I read a bunch of posts on here and other forums to try and gather the info I needed. But alas, due to mentioned GM scattered code practices and the such, I turn to the brain power of y'all.
Here is what I have. I believe it's a Saginaw.
Main case cover GM 2 3858992, I'll get the casting numbers under it.
Stamped code S7P26
Main case body GM 6 3858986 I think, 1106
Second case 3880042 GM 3 1206
Now, I was told that the engine it came off of
is a Corvette engine. I know it's a 283 made between 57-62. But I don't think this was the tranny that was originally mated to it. Nor do I know if this is an OD model.
Thanks in advance for your help.

 
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arnieg141 
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 6353
arnieg141
Loc: nj
Reg: 10-06-08
04-17-12 02:45 AM - Post#2216015    
    In response to 55SurfRod

these people can tell you..give them a call or email http://www.dandltransmission.com/
GET ER DONE .. AS I GET OLDER I LIKE FAST CARS I CAN STILL DRIVE. AND VERY SLOW WOMEN I CAN CATCH while still able..arnie garrison


 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3368

Age: 63
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
04-17-12 02:58 PM - Post#2216242    
    In response to 55SurfRod

IF it's got a 4-bolt side cover, it's a MUNCIE 3-speed, used from 55-65, in basically the same configuration n(X-frame cars used a shorter version, trucks bolted to the bellhousing differently). I don't know why, but a lot of guys refer to them as "Saginaws". The Saginaw however, came out in 66, and has a 7-bolt, flat bottom, side cover (both 3 and 4 speeds). There was a MUNCIE 3-speed used in 69-70 in some GM cars, but they are rare. A Borg-Warner 3-speed was also used in the "mid" 60's in some GM cars; it has a curved bottom side cover, they are rare also. Any manual trans with overdrive will have a solenoid, govenor, and separate shift lever on the extension housing as aprt of the O.D. Now, there was even a FORD Dearborn, top loader-style, 3-speed used in Pontiacs mid to late 60's (I guess to balance things out out the G.M. Hydra-matics used in some Lincolns in the early 50's). Pics are always helpful. Butch/56sedandelivery.



 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 7526

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
04-17-12 07:36 PM - Post#2216356    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

  • 56sedandelivery Said:
IF it's got a 4-bolt side cover, it's a MUNCIE 3-speed, used from 55-65, in basically the same configuration n(X-frame cars used a shorter version, trucks bolted to the bellhousing differently). I don't know why, but a lot of guys refer to them as "Saginaws". The Saginaw however, came out in 66, and has a 7-bolt, flat bottom, side cover (both 3 and 4 speeds). There was a MUNCIE 3-speed used in 69-70 in some GM cars, but they are rare. A Borg-Warner 3-speed was also used in the "mid" 60's in some GM cars; it has a curved bottom side cover, they are rare also. Any manual trans with overdrive will have a solenoid, govenor, and separate shift lever on the extension housing as aprt of the O.D. Now, there was even a FORD Dearborn, top loader-style, 3-speed used in Pontiacs mid to late 60's (I guess to balance things out out the G.M. Hydra-matics used in some Lincolns in the early 50's). Pics are always helpful. Butch/56sedandelivery.




THE 55-65 3sp WAS A SAGINAW!!!! Non syncro in 1st gear.
It was replaced by the fully syncro Saginaw in 66.

This is the general appearance of the 55-65 Saginaw 3sp. The 58-65 versions had a shorter tail housing. The tail housing below the tranny is an OD housing.



This is a Saginaw 55-65 3spOD.



At this time I do not have a good picture of a 66-later Saginaw 3sp.
Tom Parsons


 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3368

Age: 63
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
04-17-12 09:17 PM - Post#2216387    
    In response to DZAUTO

I would normally agree with almost anything DZAUTO/Tom Parsons has to say, but, and I went to my 71 edition Chiltons with this that actually starts out with the year 64, and they list it as a "type-13 Muncie 3-speed 1964-65". Course my 59 edition Motors Manual does'nt list manual trans separately, only transamatic automissions. IF they are in fact a "Saginaw", then I've been wrong since about 1968, and that's possible. Let the competetive urination contests begin. Butch/56sedandelivery.

See also: DriveTrain.Com/parts_catalog/manual_ transmission_overhaul_kit s/Muncie_3_speed_ld_overh aul_kit.html They refer to it as a Model 318 or 319 light duty Muncie 3-speed. Model 318 is the standard 3-speed, model 319 includes overdrive.



Edited by 56sedandelivery on 04-17-12 09:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 25751

Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
04-18-12 08:42 AM - Post#2216487    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

There were Muncie 3 speeds in the 60s, not the old 55-65 trans, they were fully synchronized like the Saginaw we're talking about. Not real sure what they were used in, maybe pickups.

Whether the 55-65 trans was Saginaw or Muncie, in the old days it was never identified by either description.

 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-18-12 04:32 PM - Post#2216627    
    In response to Rick_L

OOOOOYYYY, Children. LOL

I'm gonna post a bad night time photo of it in a bit. But to clear some questions up; It has a 7 bolt cover and looks to have the same silhouette as the Siginaw's I've seen on sites.
Photos coming

 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-18-12 04:50 PM - Post#2216640    
    In response to 55SurfRod

OK. Here are some images of the tranny.
The old Hurst Duel Pattern Syncro unit is still mounted up to it and covering the second housing.
Forgive the condition. She's been sitting in the garage for awhile.
1) Stamp on main case
2) Uuuuhhhhh.....
3) Cast numbers on cover






 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-18-12 04:52 PM - Post#2216641    
    In response to 55SurfRod

If needed, a brighter yet fuzzy wide shot.



Edited by 55SurfRod on 04-18-12 04:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-18-12 05:07 PM - Post#2216651    
    In response to DZAUTO

Very Pretty!! Ohh so Pretty!!

 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 25751

Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
04-18-12 05:47 PM - Post#2216670    
    In response to 55SurfRod

Looks like a Saginaw 3 speed to me. But it's been a while.

 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3368

Age: 63
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
04-18-12 06:16 PM - Post#2216688    
    In response to Rick_L

That is a full synchro, Saginaw, 3-speed; came out first in 66 and used in just about every GM product at one time or another. Like the 4-speed Saginaws, they came in different gear ratios that can be deciphered by the number of rings on the input shaft. Butch/56sedandelivery.



 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3368

Age: 63
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
04-20-12 08:15 PM - Post#2217447    
    In response to Rick_L

  • Rick_L Said:
There were Muncie 3 speeds in the 60s, not the old 55-65 trans, they were fully synchronized like the Saginaw we're talking about. Not real sure what they were used in, maybe pickups.

Whether the 55-65 trans was Saginaw or Muncie, in the old days it was never identified by either description.



The HD Muncie 3-speeds were used in 69-70 Chevrolet, Chevelle, Camaro, Chevyy II/Nova, 70 Firebird, 70 Olds F85/Cutlass/442, 70 Pont Grand Prix (when has anyone seen a 68-72 Grand Prix STICK?), GTO/Tempest. The BW T-85 3-speed was used in AMC 64-66 327 equipped cars, 64 Buick LaSabre wagons, 64-65 Wildcats, and Jeep Wagoneer/Gladiator's with 327. And I still say the 55-65 3-speeds were Muncies, even the pre 55 torquetube trannies were Muncie also. The Granny geared truck "4" speeds were also a "Muncie" trans. Butch/56sedandelivery.



 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 25751

Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
04-21-12 04:59 PM - Post#2217661    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

Well no doubt, the 55-65 trans and the 54 and earlier trans that you refer to are the same one except that they are built for the torque tube, so won't interchange.

Whatever they are called.

 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1417
f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
04-24-12 12:26 AM - Post#2218532    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

The 64-65 may be listed separately because the pitch in the gears changed and none of the gears will interchange with the 55-63 trans.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-26-12 12:07 AM - Post#2219229    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut

ALRIGHT GENTLEMEN, I have another issue to ask your input on.
The engine that came with this Saginaw 3 speed is giving me problems IDing.
This is what I have so far;
Cast number #3789935 (1961-64 230,283 & 315
2 dr car, Truck or Vette)
Stamp code "FII07D", yes two "I"s (This is where I run into problems finding matching info)
Opposite side of Cast #s(right side of back block) is K62 (could be "C K62")
Heads casting 3795896 Right J122 GM7, Left J192 GM3 Used in '63-65 283cid

SO, here is what I wont to know, What the FII07D stamp means and what this engine came out of and it's specs.
Now here is another nugget. The manifold casting is 3746828 GM 18, now research brings up that it was used in Vettes.
I hope someone can clear all this up. I wanna know the HP of this engine and what I may be able to pull out of it for my 55 Bel Air California edition 4dr to make that Jane and Dean Surf HotRod I'm looking for.
Thanks guys.



 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1417
f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
04-26-12 01:40 AM - Post#2219233    
    In response to 55SurfRod

The 935 block casting was use in mid 61 to 63. It is a standard 283, same casting as 61 Corvettes. Yours, with the "D" code at the end of the stamping indicates just a powerglide with 2 barrel 283, as I recall. As for the 2 "I"'s GM used the letter I stamp as a 1. The assembly date is 1107, November 7th. It falls in line with the casting date. The intake manifold is common to Corvettes and passenger cars. What is the date on the intake manifold? I'm curious to see if it matches the block and heads. It shouldn't.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-26-12 11:24 AM - Post#2219355    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut


I'll get the intake date. I forgot to write it down. I can tell you that it does have a 2 barrel on it.
When I got this engine it came in a parts car that I bought for body parts. The man I bought the car from told me that the engine was a Vette engine. So, I'm tryin to confirm that.
So from what you are telling, "F" Flint, "II07" November 7 and "D" is powerglide. What about the year it was made? Could the "K62" on the passenger upper back side mean '62?
Thanks


 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
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f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
04-26-12 06:59 PM - Post#2219508    
    In response to 55SurfRod

K is November. Raised casting numbers run A through L for January through December. They didn't use the "I" on Delco stampings, so they run from A through M. So your block is K62, November 6th, 1962. It was never used in a Corvette with the "D" stamping only. The Corvette with a powerglide 283 would have another letter stamped after the D, but that would only be legitimate with a 61 935 block because 62 and 63 only came with 870 casting number 327's.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-27-12 09:27 AM - Post#2219668    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut

Thank you guys. Here is the cast date code on the intake manifold. "J 52". Huh? October....52? Now I believe I have the right code. It's next to the cast code part # and in front of the distributor journal. Correct?

 
f.i.57chevynut 
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f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
04-27-12 02:15 PM - Post#2219727    
    In response to 55SurfRod

Chevy didn't make 4 barrel manifolds in 1952. The date is October 5th of 62. Flint castings only use one digit for the year whereas early Tonawanda castings use 2 digits for the year.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
arnieg141 
Dedicated Enthusiast
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arnieg141
Loc: nj
Reg: 10-06-08
04-27-12 02:59 PM - Post#2219739    
    In response to 55SurfRod

call these guys http://www.dandltransmission.com/saginaw.html
GET ER DONE .. AS I GET OLDER I LIKE FAST CARS I CAN STILL DRIVE. AND VERY SLOW WOMEN I CAN CATCH while still able..arnie garrison


 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
04-27-12 05:35 PM - Post#2219785    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut

Ahh, this is what I figured. The Chevy SMBLK V8 wasn't made until 53-4, correct? And those were 230 cid? 283s came out in 57?
Now with all you guys' kind help, it seems this was not a Corvette engine, but just a '62 passenger car or truck. Being this has a 2brrl manifold and a "D" on the block stamp. So it's just a run of the mill '62 283 then. Darn, thought I had a Vette engine taking up space. LOL
Thenks

 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3368

Age: 63
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
04-27-12 07:39 PM - Post#2219821    
    In response to 55SurfRod

  • 55SurfRod Said:
Ahh, this is what I figured. The Chevy SMBLK V8 wasn't made until 53-4, correct? And those were 230 cid? 283s came out in 57?
Now with all you guys' kind help, it seems this was not a Corvette engine, but just a '62 passenger car or truck. Being this has a 2brrl manifold and a "D" on the block stamp. So it's just a run of the mill '62 283 then. Darn, thought I had a Vette engine taking up space. LOL
Thenks


We've ALL heard the line, "it's a Vette motor"; along with, "it ran when parked, original milage, etc, etc, etc." The first Chevrolet OHV V-8 (Generation one speaking), that came out for the 55 year, was a 265, in 56 an upgraded 265 became available, and the 265 carried over into 57 as a base motor with stick shift cars; the 283 also became available for the 57 model year. All American made 55-62 passenger car sixes were 235's. The 194, 215, 230, 250, and 292 "style" sixes first came out in 62, in the Chevy II/Nova series cars, then the rest of the line in 63. Butch/56sedandelivery.



 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
05-07-12 03:35 PM - Post#2223502    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

Ok oh Motor Swamis, Can you give me your opinion on this set up?
I bought this engine to drop in my '55 Bel Air Cal Ed. It was never used. Built by a very good friend's Uncle.
1956 265 bored to 283
Fully rebuilt. Don't know what the pistons or Rods are.
-1965 Fuel injected heads, ported $ polished, over-sized valves, PC seals, springs and dampners.
-Engle 323 Cams and lifters
-Exhaust manifolds are 2 1/2" dumps
-Edelbrock Performer manifold and Holly Carb.
I don't remember the Carb size off hand.

How does this set up look and any idea what kind of hp I could get out of it? I had a '72 Chevelle 307 engine with 2brl in it before. Am I safe to assume that this engine will be much better?


Edited by 55SurfRod on 05-07-12 03:39 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
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f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
05-07-12 08:32 PM - Post#2223620    
    In response to 55SurfRod

This engine doesn't sound like a great match. The engine is .125 over so the cylinders are pretty thin. If this was a stock type rebuild you would probably not have any trouble with it, but with the heads and cam there will be more stress on the thin cylinders, a possible problem. The top end seems to be overbuilt for the weak bottom end. The chamber in the heads overhangs the cylinder. It would be better to get a stronger bottom end, 327 or 350, and take advantage of the heads and cam.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
05-08-12 05:22 PM - Post#2223926    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut

Okay, I have to revise a bit here.

-The Edelbrock manifold is a "C4B"
-Block cast # is a 3720991 Sept 10 '58
-Holley 4Brl with ink stamped numbers of 4435S. Cant find a model #. The engine is tucked in a corner right now and difficult to look all around it well.

Now wasn't the 57 283 just a bored up 265 block? Now, I would love to have a very strong 327, but funds are an issue.
Was there a problem with those '57 283s?




 
BlueGhost 
Member
Posts: 145

Age: 64
Loc: Loveland CO. USA
Reg: 02-21-04
05-08-12 09:21 PM - Post#2224010    
    In response to 55SurfRod

Agree with what Tom said, let me add that you don't want a lot of cam or carb on that little short stroke 283 block. Too big a big cam is going to bleed off compression and a 550cfm carb is plenty for that motor, 600 max. You state that it has "over sized valves" If I remember right 1.94" is as big as the 283 will allow before it hits the cyl wall. The CB4 is an old 60's Edelbrock, a Performer would be a better choice. Be sure the heads have a small enough chamber to use on a 283. Has this engine ever run?

 
55SurfRod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 12

Reg: 04-17-12
05-08-12 09:21 PM - Post#2224011    
    In response to 55SurfRod

Darn it. Typo. The cast date on the bock is Sept 10 '55. sorry.


 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1417
f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
05-09-12 12:35 AM - Post#2224044    
    In response to 55SurfRod

A 57 283( and 57 265) has the water jackets enlarged to accommodate the larger cylinders. It's casting number 3731548.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
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