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 Page 1 of 2 12
Username Post: Distributor Gear wear! (WHY?) W/Pic’s        (Topic#217089)
stroker87 
Contributor
Posts: 798

Loc: Illinois
Reg: 05-01-07
05-16-09 09:05 PM - Post#1698996    

well done some tuning to the truck felt really good better then ever! Decided to go out for a nice drive tonight and had no spark so I started hunting this is what I found


Can you tell me what caused this? And being the truck felt so good how much damage go’s along with this? I’m not sure if you can tell from the pictures is wear not broke or chunks missing, the dirt you see is from me wiping it down (not metal)



87 Silverado SWB 1/2 ton 383 Stroker Holley Stealth, 950 Pro & Some Other Good Stuff Link


 
Cmartinjr 
Member
Posts: 231

Reg: 11-16-03
05-16-09 10:49 PM - Post#1699021    
    In response to stroker87

well, easiest explanation to come up with would be cheap material for the gear. another possibility is that the shaft was meeting some resistance. caused the gear to need more force to turn, that could cause wearing due to excessive torque/force required on the teeth to cause motion.

As far as possible other damage, metal filings in oil is usually not good. diminished life of pump at a minimum. if they manage to pass the filter, then you can have them playing havoc with passages, bearings, pretty much any moving parts in the engine. I would definitely do an oil change once you replace that gear. I dunno if that was a brass gear or steel, if it was steel maybe put a magnet in the pan to attract whatever the oil change doesn't get.

thats my $.02 on it, likely one of the experts here will have better thoughts.
proud owner of a piece of junk
1984 Chevy G-10 van, complete with I-6 250 V-8 305 and 3 on the floor.


 
stroker87 
Contributor
Posts: 798

Loc: Illinois
Reg: 05-01-07
05-16-09 10:52 PM - Post#1699023    
    In response to stroker87

Oil will be changed a few times, there is about 4000 miles on this gear the only thing that might have helped is the oils bin changed about 8 times in the last 2 years (other issues, pan changed, gasket changed & things like that)


Ok, more pics to see one side has more wear then the other?









87 Silverado SWB 1/2 ton 383 Stroker Holley Stealth, 950 Pro & Some Other Good Stuff Link


Edited by stroker87 on 05-16-09 11:19 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Cmartinjr 
Member
Posts: 231

Reg: 11-16-03
05-16-09 11:34 PM - Post#1699031    
    In response to stroker87

okay another possibility. the gears hadn't lined up when you put distributor in. think cross threaded fitting. similar mechanism.
proud owner of a piece of junk
1984 Chevy G-10 van, complete with I-6 250 V-8 305 and 3 on the floor.


 
Boosted 1 
Member
Posts: 179

Loc: Downey,Ca.
Reg: 10-25-06
05-16-09 11:51 PM - Post#1699034    
    In response to Cmartinjr

Ah, is this a roller motor ?
92 3500 toy hauler, 63,70,Nova,83 Shovel, Blown with N2o 90 step side


 
oldskol 
Senior Member
Posts: 862

Age: 44
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Reg: 05-17-04
05-16-09 11:55 PM - Post#1699035    
    In response to Boosted 1

  • Boosted 1 Said:
Ah, is this a roller motor ?



I bet it is a roller motor with a standard dizzy gear.....


 
Boosted 1 
Member
Posts: 179

Loc: Downey,Ca.
Reg: 10-25-06
05-17-09 12:01 AM - Post#1699039    
    In response to oldskol

Or could be camshaft end play or dist. end play!
92 3500 toy hauler, 63,70,Nova,83 Shovel, Blown with N2o 90 step side


 
jimmmy57 
Contributor
Posts: 362
jimmmy57
Loc: Australia
Reg: 03-08-08
05-17-09 02:35 AM - Post#1699052    
    In response to Boosted 1

  • Boosted 1 Said:
Ah, is this a roller motor ?


That was the first thing I thought Boosted, but doesn't a cast gear chopp out the roller camshaft?
How about a Big block oil pump with real high oil pressure.
Distributer shaft must be bent to wear uneven like that, or the cam has run out.
Have a look down the hole and see what the cam gear is like


Jimmy

"I've told you a million times, , Don't exagerate"
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?uid=1087 1...


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 16222
grumpyvette
Age: 66
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
05-17-09 05:13 AM - Post#1699094    
    In response to jimmmy57



theres several likely reasons and the most likely is a combo of less than ideal lubrication flow and a material in-compatability between the cam and distributor gears, add the extra drag the oil pump is likely to prooduce after ingesting metalic crap from the gear wear..well...Id sure take a strong light and look down the distributor hole at the cam gear and hopefully its NOT similarly worn.
some roller cams came with steel gears that require a bronze alloy distributor gear, if your experiancing that wear Id suggest inspecting the oil pump also as theres a good chance its damaged, due to the crud its ingested.
a tool like this should have let you now months ago something was wrong
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...

cutting a grouve in your lower distributor oil band in-line with the begining contact point between the gears meashing will provide extra oil flow to the gears but having compatable materials and clearances will be critical, your cam manufacturer will know the correct distributor gear material to use.


From Sallee Chevrolet. http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/PriceList/group2.0...

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... index.html

01103952 - Distributor, Late model HEI F/I, small cap. This complete distributor is used on late model V8 engines with fuel injection and computer controls. = 168.92 ( Does not say hardened gear or for roller cams )

01104060 - SBC Distributor Assembly, for Ram Jet 350. This complete distributor is used on the Ram Jet 350 port fuel injection engine. - 176.09 (RJ350 has a roller cam, but does not say this has hardened gear. so what is the diff. in this one and the one above? )

01104067 - HEI HO Distributor. This distributor has the melonized cam drive gear P/N 10456413 for steel roller camshafts. This distributor is required on all crate engines and roller camshafts that are made of steel. If engines are assembled not using this gear, it may affect your engine warranty. Use connector wire P/N 8917052 to ignition. Used with all small and big-block V8 High Output engine assemblies. Technical Notes: Components in these groups are interchangeable with small-block Chevrolet V8s. GM Performance Parts distributors cannot be used with "tall deck" Bow Tie block P/N 14044808. - 227.41 ( only one that says it's for roller cams, but this is a large cap HEI ).


10456413 - Distributor HEI Gear, large cap. You must use this gear with the new roller cams. This is a hardened gear. This distributor gear is used on all Chevrolet small and big-block engines, including steel roller camshaft engines. - 22.88

10469459 - Distributor HEI Gear, small cap. You must use this gear with the new roller cams. This is a hardened gear. Also fits some Mallory distributors. - 23.74
The bottom of a Chevrolet distributor housing can be and SHOULD BE! modified to spray pressurized oil onto the distributor drive gear. The extra lubrication will reduce distributor gear and camshaft gear wear. This is especially important when the gear is used to drive non-standard accessories, such as a high volume oil pump, or a magneto that puts additional loads on it and the cam. <P>When the distributor is installed, the bands at the bottom of the housing are designed to complete the internal right side lifter galley on all small and big block Chevrolet V-8’s and 90° V-6 engines. If you hand file a small vertical groove .030" wide x .030 thats the diam. that crane recommends Ive always used the larger .050 wide groove with no problems, deep on the bottom band (above the gear), pressurized oil running between the two bands will be directed downward onto both the gear and the cam This procedure is recommended for all Chevrolet engines no matter what material gear (cast or bronze) or what type of camshaft (cast or steel) you are using keep in mind the groove MUST be lined up with the cam gear when the distrib. is installed

IF the cam gear looks worn youll need to replace the cam, or( if the gears a seperate component get that replaced)( IT is on some billet cams btw)
BEFORE you go installing a new distributor gear or that will also wear at an accellerated rate
YOU must both match the correct gear materials and provide the correct lubrication, Id suggest two new gear surfaces, a good coat o MOLY assembly lube and cutting the lower distrib band for increased oil flow, ID also replace the oil pump.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 09-07-12 01:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
stroker87 
Contributor
Posts: 798

Loc: Illinois
Reg: 05-01-07
05-17-09 07:44 AM - Post#1699145    
    In response to grumpyvette

Well, I read the post this morning and took a look at the cam gear its not an easy thing to do (for me) but it looks like a new cam will be in the near future I tried to get a pic of the cam gear (Sorry for the quality) best pic out of about 20 of them

Yes, this is a roller



So I know for the next cam, WHAT WAS WRONG HERE?
87 Silverado SWB 1/2 ton 383 Stroker Holley Stealth, 950 Pro & Some Other Good Stuff Link


 
shawnlee 
Senior Member
Posts: 459

Age: 44
Loc: so.cal
Reg: 06-19-06
05-17-09 08:12 AM - Post#1699155    
    In response to stroker87

You are going to have to list some specs.......
What cam
distributor gear material
timing cover
oil pump model
Just some of the same guesses that have already been made.
end play of cam...incorrect timing cover,timing cover flex,no cam button,incompatible gear on distributor ,combined with a high pressure,high flow pump....cam plug at the back of block installed incorrectly.

Basically you will have to do a precise inspection upon tear down to determine the problem.Thats assuming the cam gear is shot,really cant tell from the picture.
Its gunna cost more and take longer,trUst me!!


 
stroker87 
Contributor
Posts: 798

Loc: Illinois
Reg: 05-01-07
05-17-09 08:29 AM - Post#1699164    
    In response to shawnlee

the cam is a COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Hydraulic roller tappet

The distributor gear is MSD-8531 Iron

Not sure on the oil pump idles at 24psi and cruise about 65-70psi

I guess your questions are simple and I should of known the answers but being my 1st build I dont know about the pump the engine builder picked it

87 Silverado SWB 1/2 ton 383 Stroker Holley Stealth, 950 Pro & Some Other Good Stuff Link


 
ralph47 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2335
ralph47
Age: 64
Loc: wadsworth, ohio
Reg: 10-28-08
05-17-09 01:11 PM - Post#1699279    
    In response to grumpyvette

WOW!!! very informative posting. but now i am real confused...i have a new crate motor..

GMPP # 12499529. i am using this with a TPI set up...and using a aftermarket small cap dist. matched to the TPI. which gear should i use? last time i did this i used a stock small cap and gear on the same cam in a 327...and the crate motor is a flat tappet cam...just confused a bit
54 Chevy Handyman Wagon
48 Chevy Pick Up
39 Chevy Coupe
62 Olds F85 Cutlass Convertible

http://s370.photobucket.com/albums/oo148/ralph47_ p...


 
D.Mac 
Senior Member
Posts: 999

Loc: Ontario Canada
Reg: 03-22-03
05-17-09 02:46 PM - Post#1699336    
    In response to ralph47

Most roller cams are steel. As opposed to cast iron of most flat tappet cams.
Some aftermarket roller cams have the distributor gear carved out of the same steel chunk as the shaft.
Most OEM, and some aftermarket steel roller cams have an iron gear cast onto the steel shaft.
If the cams gear is darker in color than the shaft, it is most likely iron and can be used with the typical factory dist gear. If the gear on the cam is shiny silver, same as the shaft, then it is a steel gear and requires a bronze or composite gear.
Check with the cam manufacturer if you are in doubt.
Dave MacDonald
Ontario, Canada

'66 Impala LT1/C950-,EFI,700R4,(sold 07/2011)
'12 Sonic LTZ, Turbo, M6
'07 Pontiac Solstice GXP
'06 Caddy CTS-V


 
vegamatic 
Member
Posts: 85

Reg: 10-28-02
05-18-09 06:44 PM - Post#1700320    
    In response to D.Mac

Your typical stock camshaft survives quite well with a stock distributer gear! Why, because they are dis-similar metals. Dis-similar metals typically wear at much lower rates than similar metals. Thats why you typically replace the distributer gear when using a roller camshaft (an aftermarket billet steel camshaft, that is).
I agree and would suggest we all make the minor lubrication modification, which would benefit any camshaft/gear application. It is an easy modification which tends to have no value in most applications (BUT why take your chances?). It would have been beneficial in this installation as it would have most likely prolonged but not prevented the wear. The reason you typically use the old bronze gear on the distributer is to introduce a dis-similar metal to mate with the camshaft gear. But, the most important feature of the bronze gear is that it WILL wear and NOT harm the cam gear on the expensive camshaft. Anyone running a bronze gear in my opinion should be pulling the distributer once a year to check for wear as this is what it is intended to do. Also, anyone running a bronze gear must have enough coin and products in their motors and they should also have the talents to pull the distributer in the blink of an eye.(so no excuses guys)
Sometimes my opinions can get a little blunt, but the drag racers/street racers/guys who must have every ounce of power out of their motors, have to honestly sit back and realize why they assembled their beasts. We want to go out and pound the crap out of them!!!! Thats the end of the story honest truth why you put them together. If we all expect the motors to last forever we are kidding ourselves. Frankly I don't care if mine grenades tomorrow. Sure I'll be out some money but I didn't put it together to baby around. The point of my wing-nut rant is if you get into this hobby you have to expect some failures (whether your fault or not) and do some periodic maintenance/checks. My first paragraph is my reply to the post, my second is not directed at anyone in particular just wanted to rant, thats all.

 
C10 Sleeper 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3426
C10 Sleeper
Loc: Redding Ca
Reg: 03-17-09
05-18-09 07:16 PM - Post#1700357    
    In response to vegamatic

thats a pretty good point I built mine to beat on so I dont thrash my daily driver. Its an expensive hobby I have thrown more money at it then I care to know although I do care if mine grenades but if it does I dont have to find another way to get to work. Its all just nuts,bolts and parts it can all be replaced. Thats why I try to keep a spare motor on hand if one breaks you learned a lesson and try not to repeat your mistake on the next one.
http://photobucket.com/C10Pictures


 
Cmartinjr 
Member
Posts: 231

Reg: 11-16-03
05-18-09 08:09 PM - Post#1700416    
    In response to C10 Sleeper

well, I'd say you succeeded admirably on beating on that engine.
proud owner of a piece of junk
1984 Chevy G-10 van, complete with I-6 250 V-8 305 and 3 on the floor.


 
gchemist 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 22033
gchemist
Loc: Austin, TX 78748
Reg: 05-09-00
05-18-09 08:16 PM - Post#1700423    
    In response to Cmartinjr

  • Cmartinjr Said:
well, I'd say you succeeded admirably on beating on that engine.



He gets kudos from me too. If you build it, beat on it!!
'83 Silverardo XST - ZZ4 powered
'96 GMC Jimmy LS Ret. @236651 miles


 
stroker87 
Contributor
Posts: 798

Loc: Illinois
Reg: 05-01-07
05-18-09 09:28 PM - Post#1700464    
    In response to gchemist

Well guys if I said I didnt beat on it I might get struck by lighting! I have "some" of my time slips (63 of them) and thats not counting any street confrontations or just feeling the need to leave some marks on the pavement, It sucks that it happend but just gives me the excuse to do more porting, install a bigger cam, clean up the engine bay some and paint & polish the engine again.... I didnt know about the bronze gear other wise it would have bin installed I didnt take any short cuts when I had this engine built $100 bronze wouldnt have broke the bank I'll be man enought to tell my lac of nolage is what cause this


vegamatic, that one hell of a rant from a guy who posted the following

"My case was 4 1/2 years of hard running with lots of nitrous through it. The only sign something was amis is one cylinder had 130 psi of pressure and the others had 195-200.
A brief overview of the motor was a stock 4-bolt, heatreated cast crank, stock rods that were polished and shot peened, 11:1 pistons and a big mechanical cam.

Here is what we found...

-- a cracked crank
-- one bent rod
-- one bent valve
-- 6 of the 8 pistons had nice impressions of an exhaust valve in them
-- the cylinders had nice shiny spots next to the head studs from the bores not being round at the top
-- the nuts on the head studs came loose with the turn of about 40 ft/lbs"

I would think being you have the TALANT to pull a distributor you'd be more on top of things

here his post http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?ti...
87 Silverado SWB 1/2 ton 383 Stroker Holley Stealth, 950 Pro & Some Other Good Stuff Link


 
Boosted 1 
Member
Posts: 179

Loc: Downey,Ca.
Reg: 10-25-06
05-18-09 11:33 PM - Post#1700480    
    In response to vegamatic

Ah, I'm shure the aggressive lobe profile of a roller cam has nothing to do with it Huh !
92 3500 toy hauler, 63,70,Nova,83 Shovel, Blown with N2o 90 step side


 
jimmmy57 
Contributor
Posts: 362
jimmmy57
Loc: Australia
Reg: 03-08-08
05-19-09 02:45 AM - Post#1700499    
    In response to stroker87

Stroker87,

I had a look on Crower and Comp cams websites and neither mention distributer gear requirements, Have you rang Comp cams?
Jimmy

"I've told you a million times, , Don't exagerate"
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?uid=1087 1...


Edited by jimmmy57 on 05-19-09 02:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
stroker87 
Contributor
Posts: 798

Loc: Illinois
Reg: 05-01-07
05-19-09 04:34 AM - Post#1700541    
    In response to jimmmy57

  • jimmmy57 Said:
Stroker87,

I had a look on Crower and Comp cams websites and neither mention distributer gear requirements, Have you rang Comp cams?



No, I have not didnt think they would do any thing for me this has bin together for 2 1/2 years now but theres only about 4k on it

I'll try to call them today
87 Silverado SWB 1/2 ton 383 Stroker Holley Stealth, 950 Pro & Some Other Good Stuff Link


 
vegamatic 
Member
Posts: 85

Reg: 10-28-02
05-19-09 06:22 AM - Post#1700586    
    In response to stroker87

Hey stroker 87

my point exactly---I would think being you have the TALANT to pull a distributor you'd be more on top of things


With that long of time running the motor, it was time to take it appart. There was nothing no reason to do it, initially it all started to check out the low cylinder pressure.Its all a live and learn thing. Like I said though, my last comment was not directed at anyone (sorry if you interperted it that way.


P.S. when searching the archives, check out one of my posts on establishing TDC. It is a post all should read, no matter what skill level. It was written to basiclly say not to trust any timing tab but create your own which WILL be 100% dead on accurate.

I was initially miffed that you seemed to diss me, but actually I am quite pleased you did a seach to review the person making the post. I wish more would do it. Thanks I guess


 
vegamatic 
Member
Posts: 85

Reg: 10-28-02
05-19-09 06:26 AM - Post#1700587    
    In response to vegamatic

Another P.S. go to summits web site and just search "bronze gear" it will show you some results.

 
stroker87 
Contributor
Posts: 798

Loc: Illinois
Reg: 05-01-07
05-19-09 09:36 AM - Post#1700708    
    In response to vegamatic

  • vegamatic Said:
I was initially miffed that you seemed to diss me




When some one ask "WHY" the means they dont know, When you reply with should have the "talant" its like slapping some one with a broken jaw, Wasnt looking for some out to sprinkle any salt on an open wound, I was looking for informantion so this dont happen again

This is my first build I've leaned ALOT and still am I dont know it or or have all the answers the hole part of me being a member of the fourm is to learn and if I can "help" some one else I will, I would NOT rant in the manner you did about talant because you know better and the one who started the topic didnt
87 Silverado SWB 1/2 ton 383 Stroker Holley Stealth, 950 Pro & Some Other Good Stuff Link


 
ralph47 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2335
ralph47
Age: 64
Loc: wadsworth, ohio
Reg: 10-28-08
05-19-09 09:55 AM - Post#1700723    
    In response to D.Mac

when i look at Jegs web site for my crate motor, it says they recommend a "melonized" dist gear...what the heck is that?
54 Chevy Handyman Wagon
48 Chevy Pick Up
39 Chevy Coupe
62 Olds F85 Cutlass Convertible

http://s370.photobucket.com/albums/oo148/ralph47_ p...


 
rumrumm 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1898
rumrumm
Loc: Macomb, IL
Reg: 10-18-01
05-19-09 10:16 AM - Post#1700745    
    In response to ralph47

Melonizing is a kind of heat treating process that will provide a better wear surface. Essentially, it is slightly softer and slicker than an untreated gear.
Lynn

"There's no 12-step program for stupid."


383 sbc, Eagle, AFR, SRP, CompCams, Edelbrock, Sanderson. Dyno #'s: 450 hp @ 5700, 468 ft. lbs. torque @ 4300.

http://photo.net/photos/Lynn%20Johanso n


 
ralph47 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2335
ralph47
Age: 64
Loc: wadsworth, ohio
Reg: 10-28-08
05-19-09 07:33 PM - Post#1701086    
    In response to rumrumm

well thanks !! nice straight answer..makes sense to wear the softer dist gear..not the cam gear

thanks again
54 Chevy Handyman Wagon
48 Chevy Pick Up
39 Chevy Coupe
62 Olds F85 Cutlass Convertible

http://s370.photobucket.com/albums/oo148/ralph47_ p...


 
Boosted 1 
Member
Posts: 179

Loc: Downey,Ca.
Reg: 10-25-06
05-19-09 09:59 PM - Post#1701139    
    In response to stroker87

I have to agree with stroker87, that was kinda a cheap shot there veg. We are all here to help each other, Not to boost ones ego
92 3500 toy hauler, 63,70,Nova,83 Shovel, Blown with N2o 90 step side


 
vegamatic 
Member
Posts: 85

Reg: 10-28-02
05-20-09 08:10 AM - Post#1701314    
    In response to Boosted 1

Here we go again....

I wanted to explain
-what a bronze gear is
-why one is used
-when one is used
-and that IF one is used , there is precautionary maintenance along with it (thats what the quote about talents was. It was to referance ones abilities and skills
-the talent reference was not to reflect my own but to ensure those of us(thats right, I am including myself since we all learn from this forum including myself) that do use certain components there can be periodic checks to be made(as in the case of a bronze gear).
- the melonized gear is a steel gear run through a certain expensive heat treating process. G.M. uses them in certain applications because of the volumn of them required and the need for a part which they can warranty. The aftermarket uses bronze because of the low cost which they can pass on to us. As stated above, with the bronze gear comes periodic checks (for wear).
- so i will sign off with boosted ego and inflated head with the knowledge that all think I am king or skills. Some day I will step off my high perch and post again. (Another attempt at humor which I am quite sure many will take offence to)


 
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