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Username Post: Performance BBC build, on a budget        (Topic#174583)
Glen Koenig 
Senior Member
Posts: 124
Glen Koenig
Loc: Downingtown, PA
Reg: 01-01-03
11-12-07 10:06 PM - Post#1294738    

I'm still negotiating the budget (furniture shopping now, BBC later), but I know I want about 600HP NA. I'm sure I won't have much $$$ to start with so I figure it'll be a flat tappet cam. I guess the best place to start is finding good heads? Also, I'm switching from an EFI SBC, 96 LT1. So, I got lots of supporting stuff to buy. I do have the fuel pump, but I need ign., cooling, carb, etc.

It's going into a 94 Caprice with a TH400 RMVB and a hipster brake, a 4500 8" TC and a Moser 9" with 4.30 gears. I'm hoping to get it into low 11's NA at ~4,000 race weight. Beyond that, I want to run low 10's on the jug.

I don't know much about BBC and could use some advice. I've been using an engine builder/friend that can help me put it together. I just want to find out as much as I can without bugging him to death. Any help would be appreciated!
96 BBB Impala SS - 12.57 @ 106
96 DGGM Impala SS - 461 BBC build in progress
96 Corvette - Stock LT4 12.89 @ 106
2002 K1500HD - 17.2 @ 82
2008 Impala SS - 14.7 @ 92??
67 C10 LWB - Work truck project


 
jb2wheeler 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4340

Loc: Louisville KY
Reg: 05-09-04
11-12-07 10:51 PM - Post#1294753    
    In response to Glen Koenig

Do some searches here. Grumpyvette has enough big block info on this section to fill a book. You have made a wise choice on engines for your heavyweight. I hope you can get enough tire under the rear to handle all that torque! JB
If you can't hum it, it ain't music! http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&am p...


 
fritz1990 
Senior Member
Posts: 6401
fritz1990
Age: 52
Loc: Kansas
Reg: 02-16-03
11-12-07 11:31 PM - Post#1294769    
    In response to jb2wheeler

I would suggest a 496 if you are looking for 600HP n/a. The extra stroke will help with torque and you will have better driveability with it compared to a 454. The cost, if building from scratch is a wash so you might as well go 496 and get some good breathing heads. Brodix Race Rites or AFR's if you can afford them. The 496 will put a on your face for a few days! My 5¢

Regards, Jeff
1998 K1500 6.5 Coal burner
1965 C10 with 498 BBC AFR Heads
1964 C10 Ran 348W for 6 years, now SBC.

Corvettes owned: '74 '77 '78 L82 Silver Anniversary, 2002 LS1

Don't have a nervous come together!

http://picasaweb.google.com/fritz199090


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 16197
grumpyvette
Age: 66
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
11-13-07 07:32 AM - Post#1294881    
    In response to fritz1990

http://www.ohiocrank.com/enginekits.html

LIMITED BUDGETS and RACING don,t play well together.....so the object is to get the most hp per dollar spent!!
you can build a killer 496 BBC , but before you start, put togeather a COMPLETE PARTS LIST and contact your local machine shop for machining prices, add the gaskets ETC, then total the cost, I doubt youll save much over the engine below

550 Urban Assault Engine

Based on the brand new Merlin III block and featuring Merlin iron heads and aluminum intake the new 550 has produced some phenomenal numbers on the dyno. The engine was designed for daily street use and starts great and idles at a smooth 700 RPM. On the dyno, 18 pulls were made to optimize timing, jetting, etc. Different rocker ratios and carb spacers were also tested. The goal was not top horsepower, although 600 is pretty good, but a broad torque curve. This engine had 625 ft. lb. of torque at 2800 RPM and still was above 625 at 4800. The engine features all premium components including 4340 steel crank, H-beam rods, forged SRP pistons, Sealed Power plasma moly rings, race bearings parts that will take a good shot of nitrous. A complete Comp Cams valve train is used including the latest technology hydraulic roller cam. Top line brands like MSD, Manley, Holley, and Moroso finish the package.

Complete engine carb to pan
$8895
for aluminum heads add $800

OR IF THE BUDGET ALLOWS

620 Super Class Complete Motor

This is a special project for the Super class, and serious bracket racer, that needs power and torque, but also has to make rounds all day without motor maintenance. This engine now makes 900 HP at 6400 RPM with 830 lb. ft. of torque at 4800 running 33 degrees of timing. The cam lift is only .748 and the rockers are Jesel shaft mount. No need to check valve springs and lash between rounds.

Engines are built with Merlin III blocks, Brodix BB3X, or Dart 345 heads, a Profler intake, Ohio Crankshaft fully center counterweighted 4340 crank, H-beam rods with ARP 2000 bolts, Canton pan, Comp cam, Felpro gaskets, and Melling oil system.

Every component is available off the shelf, the bore size will allow two rebores, and the compression is 14.3:1 which does not require the ultra expensive gas, or could be run on alcohol. The Best part is the price at $9995, less carb, ignition and valve covers, this is a really great deal.

Complete engine
$9995




" " IF YOU CAN'T SMOKE THE TIRES FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK !"


Edited by grumpyvette on 11-13-07 07:36 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Glen Koenig 
Senior Member
Posts: 124
Glen Koenig
Loc: Downingtown, PA
Reg: 01-01-03
11-13-07 08:34 AM - Post#1294928    
    In response to grumpyvette

Thanks for the quick replies, guys. I agree about budget and race not going together, but my intent isn't to get something for nothing. I just want something modest that I can build on. I may have to build a solid foundation with the internals and then save up for the top end/valve train. I just spent ~15K putting the car together plus the 7K I got in the SBC and it's not sitting well with the woman that I want more.

Grumpy, I like that first engine a lot, assuming it's got an American forged crank. I get the sense from talking to my builder that the crank has to be forged American steel for it to last. No Chinese he says.

The price on that second mill seemed like a typo, until I saw what wasn't included. Sounds like a hell of a deal anyway.

It seems to me that a 4.25 stroke is a min. requirement. However, John got me thinking of a 4.375 stroke. I don't see many posts about that stroke on a 454 OE block, is that something that can be done with minimal risk? I didn't want to go the expense of an aftermarket block.

I'm also a little curious about maybe staying EFI. I'll do a search but I'm not sure what to search on.
96 BBB Impala SS - 12.57 @ 106
96 DGGM Impala SS - 461 BBC build in progress
96 Corvette - Stock LT4 12.89 @ 106
2002 K1500HD - 17.2 @ 82
2008 Impala SS - 14.7 @ 92??
67 C10 LWB - Work truck project


 
fritz1990 
Senior Member
Posts: 6401
fritz1990
Age: 52
Loc: Kansas
Reg: 02-16-03
11-13-07 09:05 AM - Post#1294948    
    In response to Glen Koenig

I thought about a 4.375 crank, but for no more gain and the $$'s spent it wasn't worth it to me. You get roughly 512 cubes verses 496, could sonic test and bore .100 and have 505 with the 4.25 crank.

Regards, Jeff
1998 K1500 6.5 Coal burner
1965 C10 with 498 BBC AFR Heads
1964 C10 Ran 348W for 6 years, now SBC.

Corvettes owned: '74 '77 '78 L82 Silver Anniversary, 2002 LS1

Don't have a nervous come together!

http://picasaweb.google.com/fritz199090


 
69CHVL 
Member
Posts: 205
69CHVL
Loc: PHILA, PA
Reg: 08-07-05
11-17-07 06:05 AM - Post#1297849    
    In response to fritz1990

Build up a 454 or 496, get some iron retangulars or ovals if you have 'em, get some compression and add a stout solid roller. You will get 600HP this way and not need any exotic parts.
VINCE G
69 CHEVELLE SS 502
HOLLEY MPFI
TKO 600/3.90
*1.75/7.41/97.86/11.41/124.51*


 
greg_moreira 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3264

Reg: 10-06-03
11-17-07 02:36 PM - Post#1298122    
    In response to 69CHVL

This is the cam Id consider for a capable flat tappet. http://www.holley.com/402A7LUN.asp

Its the "legendary" UDHarold 288/296F10 solid flat. This cam has been one of Harolds best selling street/strip big chevy camshafts and it seems to follow him wherever he goes(the one that lunati sells is the most rescent version of the cam I know of). Yeah he designed this one as well when he was at lunati.

I can tell you of a few going low 11's and high 10's with this camshaft. The best budget exampe I can come up with is a heavy chevelle with a 4 speed using stock casting but freshened 049 oval heads, 454 inches, 10.2:1 compression and a 950 hp holley carb. With the 4 speed it goes 11.30's at 121 which is real impressive. If you know anything about drag racing 4 speeds....they never ET as fast as an auto. Auto cars 60 foot better with the right converter(torque multiplication). So in an auto trans...expect this budget build to go closer to 11.0's yet than the heavy 4 speed car does.

That cam....ported 781 or 049 ovals, performer rpm intake, 950 HP would be the preferred carb, 1 7/8 headers....2 inch max, Id go with a solid 10.5:1 and your in good shape.

My biggest worry is your gearing and converter. Your stuff is a real good match for all motor. Sounds like a bracket car so Im betting the tires are tall enough to keep the steep 4.30's in check....but I worry bout the converter. In NA form....the torque peak in a 454-468 should be right around 4500. So if your converter flashes here and does a good job of staying efficient...your 4500 converter sounds real close to optimum.

But with spray Im afraid it flashes too hard and you drive through it....and maybe NOW you do run out of steam with the big gears. Hard to say just yet.

A TIGHT unit that flashes 3800-4300 on motor would be nice....the juice will stretch the flash stall out just a hair if you spray right off the line(which you should if you can). The few extra rpm out of the converter from the nitrous will put your seemingly tight converter back up to where it should be to meet your torque peak. Thats my only real worry here.

Some options are to run it as is...se how it does and rething the converter and gearing if necessary(after the build). Another option...cam it up front knowing that you have to soften it up down low and make it a little high strung. It wont perform up to par on motor..but the nitrous will fix all of that....and with a lower torque high strung motor(based on cam decision) you dont have to worry as much about too much converter or gear WITH the nitrous.

 
greg_moreira 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3264

Reg: 10-06-03
11-17-07 02:40 PM - Post#1298124    
    In response to greg_moreira

One last thing...I re-read your original post and Im a little more worried now about the converter.

Does that converter flash 4500 with the little 353 incher? If so, it might get a little hairy with a big block EVEN naturally aspirated(unless the 353 was juiced up putting out comparable torque to a NA big block).

If the little motor could make it flash 4500....the big motor might push it too far. Hard to say but here is how you know for sure. I dont know what brand converter/what part number....but CALL the converter maker. Tell em which converter you got, how it does with the small block, and see how close and/or far off they think it is with a big block going faster on motor...and then a lot faster on juice.

 
greg_moreira 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3264

Reg: 10-06-03
11-17-07 03:08 PM - Post#1298138    
    In response to greg_moreira

And another thing to add(didnt edit the orig cause it was long enough as is). As far as the crank....I half agree with your builder. If its in the budget, an honest American crank is gonna be the most durable(crower, oliver, lunati...). BUT give credit where credit is due. I dont agree with him that others wont survive. For example, go to the chevelles board. Those guys have big chevelles so, 99 percent of them it seems have big motors(big blocks)!. LOTS AND LOTS are doing great things with Scat for example. The budget stuff lasts just fine. And in my experience(and probably yours)....truthfully how often do you hear of ANY build failing because of the crank? Usually no matter what the build...something else fails long before a crankshaft.

I know of a guy who was a litte too trusting. He bought a 454 shortblock and was told it was all factory forged internals freshly rebuilt. He never though twice and ran it as is....about 600 horsepower on motor, bout 750 on juice and close to 10.0's in a heavy car. Eventually he tore it down for new bearings, re-ring and fresh hone. To his surprise..it was all factory cast stuff. No forged....but it did not break! Even the stock big chevy cast stuff lasts....something like a scat cast or steel also last.

Most guys beleive it or not will tell you that a good American made crank is actually OVERKILL for anything less than about 7500rpm and 800 plus horsepower. Just noticed that you want to stay EFI. Thats all good, but Id pass if it were me. Carbs will be just as fast if not faster and much more budget friendly.....not to mention simple to dial in on a rad setup. Your call on that cause either can be made to work. To tell you the truth, if you were already planning to spend the cash Id save the money on the EFI and use it for a real full solid roller valvetrain. The carb, roller motor will hit harder than the flat tappet EFI motor.

Edited by greg_moreira on 11-17-07 03:09 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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