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Username Post: stock bbc heads question        (Topic#137760)
Jims56chevy 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2208
Jims56chevy
Loc: chino valley az
Reg: 11-23-04
08-08-06 08:47 AM - Post#982546    

On your stock bbc chevy heads 60's thru the 80's.Which heads are better for power and perfomance? Your closed chamber heads. Or your open chambered heads?And why did they make both styles?
56 210 2dr


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 16119
grumpyvette
Age: 66
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 11:34 AM - Post#982547    
    In response to Jims56chevy

thats alot like asking which girl looks best, with out sellecting a few too pick from, and the guy whos doing both the sellecting and judging will effect the answer.

the open chamber heads TEND TO BE less restricted and the chambers less shrouded, but factors like the cam lift,and durration, header design, intake manifold used EFFECTIVE COMPRESSION RATIO, VALVE SIZE, valve angles,BORE size,ETC. will ALL effect your results.

heres a few

330864.....68-84...oval...OPEN...396, 402, 366T,
427T, 454 Truck
330865.....68-84...oval...OPEN...396, 402, 366T,
427T, 454 Truck
330866.....68-78...oval...OPEN...366T, 427T
330867.....68-73...oval...OPEN...427T
336765.....68-78...oval...OPEN...427T
336768.....73-76...oval...OPEN...427T
336781.....73-85...oval...OPEN...454, 118cc chamber, 256/114cc ports
343771.....68-86...oval...OPEN...366T, 427T, 454
343772.....68-86...oval...OPEN...366T, 427T, 454
343783.....70-76...oval...OPEN...454 Truck
346236.....75-87...oval...OPEN...454, 120cc chamber, 225/116cc ports
352625.....70-76...oval...OPEN...454 Truck
353049.....73-84...oval...OPEN...454, 122cc chamber, 255/119cc ports
366765.....74-78...oval...OPEN...427T
473328.....68-69...oval...OPEN...366T
3856206....65-66...oval..CLOSED..396, 97cc chamber
3856208....65......rect..CLOSED..396/425hp, 109cc chamber
396/375hp "Z-16" Chevelle
3856213....66-82...oval..CLOSED..366T, 427T
3856260....68......oval..CLOSED..396 Truck
3872702....65-66...oval..CLOSED..396, 427, 98cc chamber
3873858....65-67...rect..CLOSED..396, 427, 109cc chamber
3876875....77-85...oval...OPEN...427T
3904390....67......oval..CLOSED..396, 427, 98cc chamber
3904391....67......rect..CLOSED..396, 427, 107cc chamber
3904392....67......rect..CLOSED..427, Aluminum, L88, L89, 107cc chamber
3904393....68-76...oval...OPEN...366T
3908952....67......oval...OPEN...427, "M.Truck", Marine
3909802....67......oval..CLOSED..396, 427, 101cc chamber
3917215....67-68...oval..CLOSED..396, 427, 101cc chamber
3917219....68-85...oval...OPEN...366T, 427T
3919840....67-69...rect..CLOSED..396, 427, 107cc chamber
3919842....68-69...rect..CLOSED..396, 427, Aluminum L88, L89, 107cc chamber
3931063....68-69...oval..CLOSED..396, 402, 427, 101cc chamber
3933148....69-84...oval...OPEN...'69 396/265hp, 366T, 427T, 112cc chamber
3933149....68-76...oval...OPEN...427T, 122cc chamber
3935401....68-76...oval...OPEN...427T
3946074....69&71...rect...OPEN...'69 427 L88, ZL1, Aluminum, 118cc chamber
'71 454 LS6, "round exhaust port"
3964290....69-70...oval..CLOSED..396, 402, 427, 454, 101cc chamber
Large or small hex spark
plugs used
3964291....69-72...rect..CLOSED..396, 402, 427, 454, 109cc chamber, Large or small hex spark plugs used, crate motor usage in years after 1970.
3965198....68-69...oval..CLOSED..396 Truck
3975950....68-70...oval...OPEN...396, 402 Truck, 366T, 427T
3986133....68-85...oval...OPEN...366T, 427T, 454 Truck
3986135....69-73...oval...OPEN...366T, 427T
3986136....68-84...oval...OPEN...366T, 427T, 454 Truck
3993820....71......oval...OPEN...402, 113cc chamber, 255/114 ports
3993820....71-84...oval...OPEN...454 Passenger and Trucks, 113cc chamber, 255/114 ports
3994026....71......rect...OPEN...454 LS6, 118cc chamber
3999241....72......oval...OPEN...402, 454, 113cc chamber

6272292....70-78...oval...OPEN...402, 454

I think youll find most guys will prefer the larger valves in the open chamber heads like the 049 heads after larger valves and EXTENSIVE port and bowl clean up, but by the time thats done by a good shop, your looking at a cost similar to the lower cost AFTERMARKET heads that flow SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER

btw read this

http://maliburacing.com/patrick_budd_article.htm

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/41598_cylinder_head_flow_bench_database/

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#BBChevy

 
Jimmy71Nova 
Senior Member
Posts: 449

Loc: Big Spring, TX
Reg: 04-17-04
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 11:46 AM - Post#982548    
    In response to grumpyvette

Quote:

like the 049 heads after larger valves and EXTENSIVE port and bowl clean up, but by the time thats done by a good shop, your looking at a cost similar to the lower cost AFTERMARKET heads that flow SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER





I fully agree, you are wasting money and hp by porting cast stock heads, even the camel humps (fuelies) heads. I would much rather spend the $$ and get some AFR's or Dart's that are lighter, and flow much better.

 
awendel 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2929
awendel
Age: 59
Loc: 25 miles south of Houston...
Reg: 01-12-03
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 11:57 AM - Post#982549    
    In response to grumpyvette

Quote:

I think youll find most guys will prefer the larger valves in the open chamber heads like the 049 heads after larger valves and EXTENSIVE port and bowl clean up, but by the time thats done by a good shop, your looking at a cost similar to the lower cost AFTERMARKET heads that flow SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER





Just today I got a quote on doing my 049 heads. Mine already had the ports cleaned up and had been surfaced. I wanted hardened seats on exhaust, 2.19int and 1.88exh valves, bronze bushed valve quides, magnafluxed, no springs or keepers. Price quoted was between $650-$700 to do both heads.
Anthony
My car page
Proverbs
11.21 Be sure of this: The wicked will not go unpunished, but those who are righteous will go free.


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 16119
grumpyvette
Age: 66
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 12:17 PM - Post#982550    
    In response to awendel

"Just today I got a quote on doing my 049 heads. Mine already had the ports cleaned up and had been surfaced. I wanted hardened seats on exhaust, 2.19int and 1.88exh valves, bronze bushed valve quides, magnafluxed, no springs or keepers. Price quoted was between $650-$700 to do both heads. "


thats $650 to upgrade cast iron heads that are probably more than 20 years old, that have already been decked and mildly ported,that weigh a ton compared to aluminum and if they crack they can,t easily be weklded/repaired like the far lighter weight aluminum heads, they will never flow similar numbers to the aftermarket heads and will be at a very distinct hp dis-advantage....ITs your choice and if your like me moneys a HUGE concern but I just don,t see where the old cast iron heads are worth the effort or cost
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/se...ategoryId=10187

 
Jimmy71Nova 
Senior Member
Posts: 449

Loc: Big Spring, TX
Reg: 04-17-04
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 12:31 PM - Post#982551    
    In response to grumpyvette

You can get a set of aluminum bbc heads off of e-bay for about 3-400$ more that will increase the value, hp, torque, and let you run a lower octane. I see it as nothing but being able to save money in the long run.

 
Jay727 
Old as Dirt Member
Posts: 5968

Reg: 09-02-01
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 01:58 PM - Post#982552    
    In response to Jims56chevy

I don't know why the need for seat inserts, thats cutting real close to the water jacket. If they have heavy duty seat inserts they are too deep already and if you increase the diameter you will hit water. This is on a good head too not one with hidden rot inside or thin spots.

I'm sure you need valves too. So lets add this up using the cheapest parts you can find new.
16 valves $120, new springs $100, retainers, locks, rotator eliminators $120, $700 for the head work you said (or someone said, mine was going to be $650), not including setting up the valve springs.
You got $1040.
I just bought some world products merlin heads and the special bolts for $1530, ready to bolt right on. There is one set cheaper for hydraulic cams.
Thats a $490 difference between the old vs new right there.
Plus the merlins come with new studs and guideplates.

 
awendel 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2929
awendel
Age: 59
Loc: 25 miles south of Houston...
Reg: 01-12-03
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 02:58 PM - Post#982553    
    In response to Jay727

Quote:

I'm sure you need valves too



That price included valves and I already have the springs and keepers.
Now I didn't leave them to be done. I was just looking for a figure as to what it was going to cost. And you're right Grumpy, Money doesn't grow on tree's around here. I try to budget wisely and reuse a lot of what I already have.
Anthony
My car page
Proverbs
11.21 Be sure of this: The wicked will not go unpunished, but those who are righteous will go free.


 
Jay727 
Old as Dirt Member
Posts: 5968

Reg: 09-02-01
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 03:10 PM - Post#982554    
    In response to awendel

Quote:

Quote:

I'm sure you need valves too



That price included valves and I already have the springs and keepers.
Now I didn't leave them to be done. I was just looking for a figure as to what it was going to cost. And you're right Grumpy, Money doesn't grow on tree's around here. I try to budget wisely and reuse a lot of what I already have.




I already had some stuff to but you got to include what you paid for that. $700 is cheap to do 8 exhaust seats and all the other stuff.

 
Jims56chevy 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2208
Jims56chevy
Loc: chino valley az
Reg: 11-23-04
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 04:53 PM - Post#982555    
    In response to Jay727

Look guy's I'm talking stock parts here, not enlargeing valves,or doing port work, I was just trying to get an answer to which type was better, cloesd or open.Example here is a 396/ 425hp head 3856208....65......rect..CLOSED..396/425hp, 109cc chamber , I would be happy with that, I don't need 600hp.And I do understand that there are all kinds of variables with engines.I was just wondering if I came across some stock heads which would be the better choice open or closed.
56 210 2dr


 
fritz1990 
Senior Member
Posts: 6397
fritz1990
Age: 52
Loc: Kansas
Reg: 02-16-03
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 04:56 PM - Post#982556    
    In response to Jims56chevy

Open chambers in 781's or 049's these are the best oval ports from the factory. JMHO I have 781's on my 496 in sig.
Regards, Jeff
1998 K1500 6.5 Coal burner
1965 C10 with 498 BBC AFR Heads
1964 C10 Ran 348W for 6 years, now SBC.

Corvettes owned: '74 '77 '78 L82 Silver Anniversary, 2002 LS1

Don't have a nervous come together!

http://picasaweb.google.com/fritz199090


 
greg_moreira 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3264

Reg: 10-06-03
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 06:49 PM - Post#982557    
    In response to fritz1990

I am definitely a proponent of the stock cast big block stuff...preferably 049 and 781's. They have got lots of potential and I know plenty running 10's on motor with these. Heck, in the old elky we had a basically unported set of 049's(just mild cleanup work) with the stock size valves on top of a fairly mild 454 and it still hauled that thing into the 12's with basically no converter and 3.55's out back. Granted, its a mild motor, but at the same time, 12's aint exactly slow. That makes for a real fun street car. If you have access to a good core and its not gonna cost you an arm and a leg to work with them....they will go fast with minimal work on your larger big blocks. And if your crazy enough...you can stretch em into the 10's for sure! If I was building a 500 horsepower or less big block....I wouldnt think twice if I had the opportunity to get into a descent set for descent money.

Now if your barkin up the 600 plus tree....it starts to get a good bit easier with the afermarkets! The factory big chevy heads aint like the small block peices(that have much less potential). The most important thing is to compare costs. If your sure you will be getting good work and a good set of heads for a price thats reasonable, its not a bad idea depending on your power expectations. If youve got to spend lots of money...the aftermarkets get more appealing even if you arent trying to make real big power. For example...the merlin 269cc heads. Descently priced and flow similar to a respectably ported set of 781's or 049's. Its just all about the cost and how much power your tryin to make.

 
Jims56chevy 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2208
Jims56chevy
Loc: chino valley az
Reg: 11-23-04
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 08:16 PM - Post#982558    
    In response to fritz1990

Thanks fritz and Greg that is the kind of answer I was trying to arrive at.Thanks all for your inputs.
56 210 2dr


 
Chris Standring 
Member
Posts: 231

Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Reg: 01-21-03
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-08-06 10:21 PM - Post#982559    
    In response to Jims56chevy

The open chambered heads were created to unshroud the valves and get better emissions. Even though the compression dropped the additional flow was nearly enough to offset the drop in compression such that horsepower figures were almost unchanged. A rare case of a win-win situation!

Chris
1967 Impala Sport Sedan (factory Canadian RHD), 454 on dedicated LPG.
1979 Holden One Tonner Ute, 3.3 l 6 cyl (454 some day when that big bucket of money falls out of the sky!).
Both Works In Progress.


 
motorman 
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 5170

Loc: south western pa.
Reg: 01-25-00
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-09-06 02:41 AM - Post#982560    
    In response to Chris Standring

Quote:

The open chambered heads were created to unshroud the valves and get better emissions. Even though the compression dropped the additional flow was nearly enough to offset the drop in compression such that horsepower figures were almost unchanged. A rare case of a win-win situation!

Chris


we had a set of early sand cast aluminum OC BBC heads and put them on a CC L-88 engine with out changing pistons and the engine dynoed 30+ more HP
retired race engine builder,former NASCAR tech inspector. new corvettes owned 1959,1962,1963,1964,1965, 1966,1997,1999,2002,2005, 2008 plus 30+ other chevy cars and trucks along the way. 2008 corvette sold and waiting on a C-7.


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 16119
grumpyvette
Age: 66
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
Re: stock bbc heads question
08-09-06 03:59 AM - Post#982561    
    In response to motorman

assuming your starting from scratch...and will need to buy all new components, youll generally want to spend about 40% of the cost of the parts on JUST the heads and cam on any performance build,40% on the block and rotating assembly, and 10% on smaller components, the other 10% is machine work/gaskets. if your spending significantly less on the heads Id bet your running fairly restrictive heads on that application.
even the crummy PEANUT port heads can be made to flow enought air to reach 450hp on a 454 bbc, so the .049s are a huge advance over those (once some port/bowl works been done) but unless your only looking for 450-500hp max Id sure sellect the lower cost aftermarket heads EVEN on a street engine simply because IVE SEEN BOTH THE DIFFERANCE IN POTENTIAL and A WHOLE LOT OF OLDER STOCK HEADS WITH CRACKED CHAMBERS AND VALVE SEATS AND CRACKED VALVE STEM AREAS
it just does not pay in my opinion to sink a good deal of machine work costs and parts into stock, heads that are 25-40 years old, when the newer heads have so much more hp potential, due to improved design and tend to be far thicker castings.
think it thru, where else would you even consider useing a 25-40 year old design part, they have made SIGNIFICANT improvements in material, casting technology,port and chamber designs the last 40 years, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM

 
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