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Username Post: R46TS vs R45TS        (Topic#104278)
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
06-17-05 11:48 AM - Post#721118    

hi all.
as i'm sure you all know plugs 1,3 & 5 can be hard to get at in a 307 mounted in a van.
so last tune up i installed the hotter R46TS
to curb fouling on my old engine.
for my efforts those very plugs fouled out in less than 5K.
i have replaced them with new R45TS but want to know how come this happened?
my ignition system is cap discharge triggered by points. my advance is 10deg and i use regular gas.
my oil 40wt and filter are name brands changed every 3k miles or 6months (whichever comes first.
barry
71 beauville G10. 307 w/stick.


 
sgian 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4538
sgian
Loc: MO
Reg: 12-25-03
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-17-05 01:46 PM - Post#721119    
    In response to Barry

Are you burning oil?
90 C1500, 05 Tahoe 4WD


 
ranman 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 10697
ranman
Loc: The cold wet and windy O...
Reg: 03-10-01
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-17-05 07:40 PM - Post#721120    
    In response to Barry

How large of a gap are you running?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If plants ruled the world, would they regulate oxygen?


 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-18-05 07:32 AM - Post#721121    
    In response to sgian

"Are you burning oil?"

w/only 300k original miles on the engine:>)?
yes a quart every 800 miles. however never in my 25 years of ownership have i fouled #'s 1,3&5 before. matter of fact #8 which is a R45TS was squeaky clean and its the plug that would usually foul first because of a bad valve seal.i believe the hotter plugs shouldn't have fouled at all.
since replacing the plugs w/R45 i checked and after 500 miles they are grey.

 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-18-05 07:36 AM - Post#721122    
    In response to ranman

"How large of a gap are you running?"

my gap is .045 and i have a capacitive discharge ignition system.

 
74huggerorange 
Senior Member
Posts: 434

Loc: Oklahoma
Reg: 03-21-03
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-18-05 12:10 PM - Post#721123    
    In response to Barry

you may try closing up the gap a little to 35 and going from there, a high output coil would be a relatively inexpensive way of getting a litte more fire to those plugs as well and of course I'm assuming the usual tune up items are in tip top shape (cap, points, condensor, rotor, WIRES)
74 K10 350/400/np208
06 Trailblazer SS...many mods
Polaris RZR


 
89rs400 
Senior Member
Posts: 742

Reg: 04-19-02
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-18-05 01:26 PM - Post#721124    
    In response to Barry

MSD or some CD ignition would probably help also.
89rs w/a 400, some aluminum things, a tremec and 9inch w/a 4.10 gear idle.MPG


 
sgian 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4538
sgian
Loc: MO
Reg: 12-25-03
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-18-05 01:29 PM - Post#721125    
    In response to Barry

If you want to extend the life of the plugs you could put some nonfoulers over them until you get around to replacing the valve stem seals or whatever is causing most of the oil fouling. It won't be very efficient since the plugs will be shrouded but at least you won't need to pull the plugs as often.
90 C1500, 05 Tahoe 4WD


 
Anonymous 

Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-18-05 02:16 PM - Post#721126    
    In response to sgian

Loose the S suffix on your plug number,that will pull the electrodes out of the oil where they are supposed to be.

 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-19-05 06:59 AM - Post#721127    
    In response to 74huggerorange

Quote:

you may try closing up the gap a little to 35 and going from there, a high output coil would be a relatively inexpensive way of getting a litte more fire to those plugs as well and of course I'm assuming the usual tune up items are in tip top shape (cap, points, condensor, rotor, WIRES)




being i have a capacitive discharge ignition system i wish i could open the gap to .050. however the construction of these plugs prevents me from doing so.
i have had the present system for years and as i posted before only the replacement "hotter plugs" chose to foul. the remaining originals(R45TS) were as clean as could be.
this is exactly the opposite of the results i expected when installing the hotter R46TS.
71 beauville G10. 307 w/stick.


 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-19-05 07:10 AM - Post#721128    
    In response to

Quote:

Loose the S suffix on your plug number,that will pull the electrodes out of the oil where they are supposed to be.




wouldn't the R45T w/o the "S" be a fatter plug (13/16's)with a washer for a seal? my plugs are the skinny(5/8's) w/a tapered seat.

 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-19-05 07:14 AM - Post#721129    
    In response to sgian

Quote:

If you want to extend the life of the plugs you could put some nonfoulers over them until you get around to replacing the valve stem seals or whatever is causing most of the oil fouling. It won't be very efficient since the plugs will be shrouded but at least you won't need to pull the plugs as often.




being the colder plugs never fouled i don't believe thats the case.
as a matter of fact i reinstalled the colder original r45ts and after 500 miles they are still clean.
i only put hotter plugs in to begin with to prevent probs like this.
71 beauville G10. 307 w/stick.


 
ranman 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 10697
ranman
Loc: The cold wet and windy O...
Reg: 03-10-01
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-19-05 05:44 PM - Post#721130    
    In response to Barry

Might just try a different brand. I like the Autolite better than the AC plugs. To me, they look better made.... more accurate out of the box. AC's don't seem to have the strap centered over the electrode very often.
I use the Autolite #26 extended tip..... can't recall the exact ID number... possibly TS26? I think they are one step hotter than the AC 45's.
I have tried other plugs, but have always come back to the Autolites.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If plants ruled the world, would they regulate oxygen?


 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-21-05 06:04 PM - Post#721131    
    In response to ranman

Quote:

Might just try a different brand. I like the Autolite better than the AC plugs. To me, they look better made.... more accurate out of the box. AC's don't seem to have the strap centered over the electrode very often. I use the Autolite #26 extended tip..... can't recall the exact ID number... possibly TS26? I think they are one step hotter than the AC 45's.I have tried other plugs, but have always come back to the Autolites.


i went that route years ago using another brand of platinum trk plug. they lasted 5 mins:>)my engine calls for R45TS. as you have read in my previous posts i thought i would give the hotter R46TS a try. i only installed them in cyls 1,3 &5 because they are the most difficult for me to get at.i believe i got maybe 5k miles out of them before fouling. so i'm back to original R45Ts' with the gap opened as far as i dare open them. thats a tad over 045. my cap discharge ignition module has a bypass switch so i may set my points dwell. my coil is OEM. i do get a hell of a spark.thats why i am confused as to why hotter plugs fouled while originals go around 12k. barry

 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-24-05 09:26 AM - Post#721132    
    In response to Barry

just a follow up to my post the folks @ AC DELCO got back to me regardingmy problem sub of R46TS. they said that may cause preignition. for a hotter spark w/a wider gap they recommend i use "rapid fire #2" instead. no mention as to why the plugs fouled. barry

 
sgian 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4538
sgian
Loc: MO
Reg: 12-25-03
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-24-05 05:28 PM - Post#721133    
    In response to Barry

They are thinking that preignition caused the plugs to foul. Here's an important question that should have been mentioned or asked earlier, what did the plugs look like?

Now if the 45's work so well and never foul, why bother going a step hotter?
90 C1500, 05 Tahoe 4WD


 
ranman 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 10697
ranman
Loc: The cold wet and windy O...
Reg: 03-10-01
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-24-05 08:07 PM - Post#721134    
    In response to Barry

Quote:

so i'm back to original R45Ts' with the gap opened as far as i dare open them. thats a tad over 045. my cap discharge ignition module has a bypass switch so i may set my points dwell. my coil is OEM. i do get a hell of a spark.thats why i am confused as to why hotter plugs fouled while originals go around 12k. barry





That was some beneficial input.
Drop the gap. A larger gap will do not good unless you have a larger coil.
Gap them at .040
If the plug looks like it fires good when you observe it outside the engine, that is no indicator of how well it fires under the heat and pressures inside the engine.
That "hell of a spark" is not the same one that happens inside the cylinder under operating conditions.
With a stock system, the larger gap may produce a long spark.... but a long and weak spark.
A smaller gap produces a shorter and stronger spark.
Bigger is not always better.
I would recomend changing the gap to .040. No real reason going much beyond that.

Do you have a modified points type distributor with an original points style coil? If so, drop the gap to .035.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If plants ruled the world, would they regulate oxygen?


 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-25-05 07:49 AM - Post#721135    
    In response to sgian

Quote:

They are thinking that preignition caused the plugs to foul. Here's an important question that should have been mentioned or asked earlier, what did the plugs look like?" they were very oily ================================================Now if the 45's work so well and never foul, why bother going a step hotter?


here's a case of if it ain't broke why fix it?I'm retired and don't use the van like i used to. these plugs are difficult for me to change so i figured(incorrectly)during my last tune up a hotter plug would never foul. i will never sub my R45TS again. instead i bought an air driven spark plug cleaner to use from now on.

 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-25-05 08:02 AM - Post#721136    
    In response to ranman

Quote:

Quote:

so i'm back to original R45Ts' with the gap opened as far as i dare open them. thats a tad over 045. my cap discharge ignition module has a bypass switch so i may set my points dwell. my coil is OEM. i do get a hell of a spark.thats why i am confused as to why hotter plugs fouled while originals go around 12k. barry





That was some beneficial input.
Drop the gap. A larger gap will do not good unless you have a larger coil.
Gap them at .040
If the plug looks like it fires good when you observe it outside the engine, that is no indicator of how well it fires under the heat and pressures inside the engine.
That "hell of a spark" is not the same one that happens inside the cylinder under operating conditions.
With a stock system, the larger gap may produce a long spark.... but a long and weak spark.
A smaller gap produces a shorter and stronger spark.
Bigger is not always better.
I would recomend changing the gap to .040. No real reason going much beyond that.

Do you have a modified points type distributor with an original points style coil? If so, drop the gap to .035.




my distributor is stock w/points.
however i have an aftermarket "delta mark 10B CDI" that hits the coil w/400 volts.
its driving the original coil as recommended by the manufacturer. so without a larger plug gap i wouldn't realise any gain from its hotter spark.
this system is from the early 70's
barry

 
sgian 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4538
sgian
Loc: MO
Reg: 12-25-03
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-25-05 09:52 AM - Post#721137    
    In response to Barry

Since they were very oily, then it isn't likely to be preignition like the company suggested. Signs of heat related fouling or preignition fouling are damaged, pitted, or melted electrodes, glazing, spots, etc. I don't know why a hotter plug would look oily like that faster than a colder plug unless the electrode was quickly damaged so much it would no longer fire and then a mixture of carbon and unburned gas collected on them. Cleaning the plugs should show if there was damage to them.

According to MSD, use of their MSD-6 series of boxes may allow a wider gap even with points.
90 C1500, 05 Tahoe 4WD


 
ranman 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 10697
ranman
Loc: The cold wet and windy O...
Reg: 03-10-01
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-25-05 09:14 PM - Post#721138    
    In response to Barry

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

so i'm back to original R45Ts' with the gap opened as far as i dare open them. thats a tad over 045. my cap discharge ignition module has a bypass switch so i may set my points dwell. my coil is OEM. i do get a hell of a spark.thats why i am confused as to why hotter plugs fouled while originals go around 12k. barry





That was some beneficial input.
Drop the gap. A larger gap will do not good unless you have a larger coil.
Gap them at .040
If the plug looks like it fires good when you observe it outside the engine, that is no indicator of how well it fires under the heat and pressures inside the engine.
That "hell of a spark" is not the same one that happens inside the cylinder under operating conditions.
With a stock system, the larger gap may produce a long spark.... but a long and weak spark.
A smaller gap produces a shorter and stronger spark.
Bigger is not always better.
I would recomend changing the gap to .040. No real reason going much beyond that.

Do you have a modified points type distributor with an original points style coil? If so, drop the gap to .035.




my distributor is stock w/points.
however i have an aftermarket "delta mark 10B CDI" that hits the coil w/400 volts.
its driving the original coil as recommended by the manufacturer. so without a larger plug gap i wouldn't realise any gain from its hotter spark.
this system is from the early 70's
barry





I wish I was more familiar with the workings of a CDI. I didn't know that a CDI used, or could use a standard coil.
I have an HEI, so I don't know how the output voltage compares between your coil and an HEI. HEI's have a recomended gap of .045, but I find that .040 or .042 works better.
I did a test once and the farther I got past .045 the harder the engine started, and at .055 or .060 it even backfired when I stabbed the throttle from a standing start....... did it again when I was doing 50MPH and floored it, hitting passing gear.
Again, I am not sure how your system works, but a smaller stronger spark is better than a longer weaker one.
In my opinion, a .035 gap with an HEI would be better than a .035 gap with a stock coil.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If plants ruled the world, would they regulate oxygen?


 
Barry 
Member
Posts: 24

Loc: miami fla, usa
Reg: 12-19-04
Re: R46TS vs R45TS
06-26-05 09:40 AM - Post#721139    
    In response to sgian

Quote:

Since they were very oily, then it isn't likely to be preignition like the company suggested. Signs of heat related fouling or preignition fouling are damaged, pitted, or melted electrodes, glazing, spots, etc. I don't know why a hotter plug would look oily like that faster than a colder plug unless the electrode was quickly damaged so much it would no longer fire and then a mixture of carbon and unburned gas collected on them. Cleaning the plugs should show if there was damage to them.According to MSD, use of their MSD-6 series of boxes may allow a wider gap even with points.


my feelings exactly!!!!!. and i'm sure the boys at AC delco were covering their collective butts just in case. after cleaning, the plugs looked like new but i won't be using them again. to much hastle to remove/install. the knowledge that rapid fire #2 is an approved replacement along with its wider spark gap kinda resolves my delima. the oem R45TS construction doesn't allow for a much wider gap than 040. w/o a wider gap for the hotter spark from my CDI system to take advantage of ,all i have is a piece of expensive hardware. i'll be monitoring the clearance tables for them along w/a sale on my Ph25/35 oil filters:>) BTW what is considered a normal lifespan(in miles) for those skinny spark plugs? barry

 
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